Unless you’ve been hiding under a rock, you know that the big talk in the podcasting world is about the Spotify / Joe Rogan controversy. Musicians and some podcasters are removing their content from the platform because of misinformation and racially inflammatory language on his hugely successful podcast. And the debate is now filtering down to independent podcasters and guests.
With that in mind, this is less of our usual “How to…” episode and more of a “How do…” episode – as in, how do we choose guesting opportunities (and guests) that align with our values? And if we disagree, how do we do this in a respectful way that allows for a variety of opinions but isn’t harmful to audiences?
Walking through these matters with me is Esther Littlefield, a marketing strategist & business coach, and the host of the award-winning Christian Woman Leadership Podcast and Christian Woman Business Podcast. Esther is passionate about helping clients cut through the confusion and find clarity, so I thought she’d be the perfect person to join me on a deep dive through all of these issues!
How do Spotify and Joe Rogan affect your business?
Topics covered include:
- Esther’s work as a marketing strategist and business coach, and how podcasting has become a big part of her life and business
- Some background about the Joe Rogan controversy, and our feelings about his content and Spotify as a platform
- Esther’s experiences of different perspectives and opinions on her faith-based podcasts – are disagreements and differences of opinion a bad thing?
- As guests – how to ensure that the opportunity is aligned with your goals and that you have a connection with the host
- For podcast hosts – would you censor if you 100% did not agree with a guest? When does censorship become Producing?
Although talk of multi-million-dollar exclusive deals is out of reach for the majority of podcasters and guests, it has certainly given me a lot to think about in terms of where I draw the line and who I align myself with. But in all of that, I recognize the value of podcasting as a space where different opinions can be shared and hard conversations are had.
I’d love to know what your thoughts are, on this and how the podcasting space is developing. As always, get in touch with me on IG @thepodwizegroup, or record a short message at speakpipe.com/GPY.
The Podwize Group’s resources mentioned in this episode:
- Join the Podwize Group email list and get your copy of Podcast Pitches That Convert at thepodwizegroup.com/pitches
- Learn more about The Podwize Group’s services
- Follow The Podwize Group on Instagram
Podcasts mentioned in this episode:
- Ep. 186 of Esther’s Christian Woman Leadership Podcast: 4 Ways to Reframe Disagreement
- Ep. 68 of the Christian Woman Business Podcast: 6 Tips for Deciding Which Opportunities to Pursue (and how to make the most of them)
Other resources mentioned in this episode:
- Read a May 2020 NY Times article, Joe Rogan Strikes an Exclusive, Multiyear Deal With Spotify
- Read a report from The Verge, with details of Spotify’s response to the Joe Rogan controversy, and their plan to label podcasts that discuss COVID-19 (Jan 30 2022)
- Visit Podnews
- Visit Esther Littlefield, listen to her podcasts and connect with her on Instagram
Now it’s time for you to get out there and Go Pitch Yourself! Can’t wait to connect again!
Interested in connecting with other entrepreneurs who are using podcasts to grow their business?
>>> Check out the Podwize Co-Op
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Transcript for How do Spotify and Joe Rogan affect your business?
Please Note: This transcript was computer generated so please be mindful of errors. Thank you.
Angie 0:00
Hey there pitches thanks for tuning in to another episode of go pitch yourself. I am your host, Angie Trueblood. And this episode, I’m chatting with Esther Littlefield, host of the Christian women’s leadership, podcast, and host of the Christian Women’s Business Podcast, all about how the Spotify Rogan headlines might impact us, the independent podcast hosts and business owners, who are not quite at the same scale as these behemoths in the podcasting world. First, Esther and I do a quick rundown of what all has transpired over the last few weeks, while also acknowledging that there’s no chance she or I will ever sit through three hours of the Joe Rogan experience for the purpose of research. So we’re not really tackling the validity or invalidity of his content. Although I will say here that his use of racial slurs and in general, his language around race that have been brought to the forefront by India Arie give me even more reason, never to listen to his show. Okay, Esther, and I chat through the impact that exclusivity contracts have and how Spotify seems to be figuring some of this out as they go. We chat through the pod wise group’s internal decision to not pull our content from Spotify. And most importantly for you, she and I chat about and share examples of how we as podcast hosts in podcast, guests are starting to look a few more steps ahead when we schedule guests for our show, when we pitch to be a guest on someone else’s show. And when we decide who and what types of beliefs we align ourselves with, you know, easy stuff. Alright, let’s do this.
2:12
Hello, if you are new to go pitch yourself, welcome. I am Angie, a podcast visibility strategist, aka podcast pitcher extraordinaire, founder of the pod wise group. And I am so excited and a little bit nervous to bring you today’s conversation. If you’re an OG listener, hello, thank you for sticking with me as long as you have. So today’s episode is a bit more of a discussion and less of a how to than you would normally expect here on go pitch yourself. So know that going in. I just felt a conversation needed to be had around the current events in the podcasting space. So I invited my friend Esther on this show, she said yes, we both did some research and prep for the episode. And then unbeknownst to both of us separately, we both wondered if we were crazy for attempting to tackle this subject. Nonetheless, we persisted. We connected and started talking shop before we officially began the interview. And we actually started jumping into the content so quickly, before I even hit record that I had to stop us and say I’m just going to hit record because I don’t want to miss anything. So we ended up doing the introduction for Esther a little bit because I wanted you to pick up where she and I were when we really connected and got going. So here we go. I hope you enjoy today’s conversation with Esther Littlefield.
Angie 3:51
Okay, so you were saying like when Rogan came out with a Spotify deal? Yeah. Or like the exclusive contract, right? Yes, I was reading some articles that basically we’re talking about when this initially started happening when Spotify started saying we’re gonna have these exclusive podcasts. And a lot of people in the podcasting space were really upset. Because podcasting in my understanding in very limited terms is distributed. It’s an audio file that is distributed through an RSS feed. And it’s kind of this open distribution. You can think of it almost like a blog, somebody on the internet writes a blog, anybody who can access the internet can go and read that blog. There’s no gatekeeper to the blog, just like an RSS feed. There’s no gatekeeper. And it’s kind of like what Spotify has done. And there are I believe there are other platforms that are doing this too, that are creating these exclusive podcasts only accessible on their platform. They’re creating a gatekeeping system that someone has to pay to be able to access it or not.
5:00
Maybe not even pay, but they can only get it on that platform.
5:04
If we’re looking at it like a blog, then Spotify would be what? Like WordPress? No, because Spotify Yeah. Good browser. I don’t even think it’s like a browser, I think it’s like, I’m trying to think if there are comparisons in the blogging space. Some of the articles, we’re comparing Spotify, kind of like YouTube, or even Facebook, like there’s certain things that you can only access on those platforms, right, yeah. And those platforms then get to decide what they are going to allow or not allow on their platforms. Versus if I just go and record a video and put it on my website hosted by me, and I’m paying for everything myself. Then I can put up any video that I want, if that makes sense. Yeah. And I feel like if you put it on your own site, really the only gatekeeper if you’re putting out some really crazy stuff would be almost like the government. Right? Yeah. Right.
6:06
You know, it’s not just kind of like, what offends me, what do we feel like is insensitive? What do we interpret as misinformation? It’s more like this governing agency decides, yeah, I don’t know that any of the other players have exclusive rights, because there’s a couple of shows like everyone that listens to my podcast, knows that I’m obsessed with the Smartlist podcast with Jason Bateman and his crew. And I think you can pay to have access to the episode sooner. So it’s kind of different in the sense of you don’t have to really listen to their player, you can just be patient, and it will get to you, you know, right. But Spotify, I looked up and I didn’t realize his armchair expert, exclusive with Spotify. I think it is now. I think it is. Yeah. All right. And then there was one then Brene Brown was on there exclusively. She is still there exclusively, but has stopped producing at the moment. And then some other one I found, call her daddy, which I have no idea what that is.
7:15
I don’t know if I want to check that way. Oh.
7:19
Okay. Let’s take a step back. Just to introduce the audience. If you listen to this rambling part, it was really because I wanted to hit record. So we didn’t miss anything. But I’m excited to have you here. This all came about from a Facebook post where I feel like all great things happen.
7:39
And sometimes all horrible things to say, right? I don’t think ever has much good come out of that. But I basically just posted I don’t know, it might have been a week ago at this point, when Brene Brown had announced that she was gonna no longer publish podcasts for the time being in reaction to a couple of episodes of Joe Rogan’s podcast having what a lot of people deem as misinformation regarding COVID and the vaccine, some other music artists had asked for their content to be pulled. And so I just, you know, innocently enough, it was kind of, I guess, like throwing gasoline on a fire and like walking away to see what would happen. You know, like, I was kind of interested to see what to check out. And then I do feel like that post, like, people were very respectful and shared opposing views, which is what I’m here for. And it just got me thinking because you’ve been in the podcasting space. And I was like, why don’t we just record an episode and kind of, deep dive into it as much as we feel like it and talk about how it might be relevant to those of us with far smaller audiences than Joe Rogan. Right? And we’re not companies the size of Spotify, but like, let’s just hash it out. So both you and I feel like jumping the gun and being like, Hey, you want to do this? Sure. And then we’re like, oh, my gosh, what are we actually doing? But thank you for saying yes. So before we dig in, can you just share with the audience who you are and what your background is in the podcasting space? Sure. Okay. I’ll try to keep it as brief as possible. Yeah, I’m Esper Littlefield. And what I do now is different from what I have done in the past, but now, I primarily work with Christian women, and I am a marketing strategist and business coach. And so I help women who are growing a business online. But I do have, you know, the specialization in podcasting because I started working with clients behind the scenes, like I was a virtual assistant. And then I was an online business manager. And I did a lot of just back end things for the past seven years, basically. And during that time, I started working with clients that had podcasts that I launched my own podcast in 2018. And that grew pretty quickly and is something that I still do now and I love it. And then I started working
10:00
exclusively with clients to help them launch their podcasts and then manage their podcasts. And so I did that for a few years and have also created a couple of courses about podcasting. So, I’ve definitely been in the podcasting space for, you know, several years now. And I listened to, you know, tons of podcasts. So it’s something that I love talking about. I started a second podcast in 2020. So yeah, so it’s been it’s been a fun ride of podcasting. It’s now not what I focus on, but it is still a big part of my business. For sure. Well, it’s so funny because you and I met before either of us, I think we’re in podcasting. Remember, oh, my gosh, we both had businesses about motherhood and like, yes, yes. I wrote a blog post about meal planning. What was your site back then? I think my site at that point was wellness mom life. Oh, and so it’s all about moms and being healthy and wellness. And then I had you do a guest post on my site. And yeah, we’ve just stayed connected ever since then. I know. This is perfect. This is a full circle. Yes. Okay. So I feel like we’ve done a little overview of what happened. In general, it was this uncomfortableness and really just disagreement that a lot of people had about some of the content that Joe Rogan was not spewing. I want to be respectful, but that she was sharing. Thank you on his podcast. So do you have any comments? I guess about that part of it? Okay. I tried to listen to that one episode. Dude, his podcast episodes are so long. Yeah, I couldn’t. Okay, so I will say this. It kind of sometimes bothers me when people talk about things that they’ve never listened to or read. But that’s exactly what I’m doing. Because I’ve never listened to anything from Joe Rogan. I have no interest in it, really. But my understanding. And again, we’ve been doing a little bit of research here to just prepare for this episode. My understanding is that he interviews a lot of people on his show, and that some of the people that he has interviewed, uh, you know, shared views about COVID. And about all those things that, you know, some people feel is misinformation. And so that’s my understanding of what people are upset about, that he would bring on certain guests that are saying things that are perceived to be harmful or unhelpful, or misinformation to the general public. Yeah, I agree. When this first started evolving, and caveat, go pitch yourself is not a news show. So, right.
12:47
Esther and I are doing the best that we can to have a candid conversation about this. I will definitely say that I love pantsuit politics. They tackled this a little bit in last Friday’s episode. And they were kind of like the same thing. Like, it’s this uncharted territory, one of the hosts of that show did say that she listened to the entire three hours of one of the interviews in particular. And she did suggest that like, some of the content was just a little really out there and absurd. And I just give her props for listening.
13:22
And I agree with you, because I actually texted a friend of mine who I adore, and also, like, shared something on the infamous Facebook thread. And I texted, I said, Hey, did you listen to that episode, and she said she didn’t. And so it was really me. You know, like, I don’t want to come on here and really be a judge of what I think he said, I will say, since that came out, there has also been this evolution of like a resurfacing of his content to where he has repeatedly used the N word on his podcast. And since then, Spotify has pulled I’ve seen varying reports of anywhere from like, a couple dozen to over 100 of his episodes. So I mean, I can just say in general, like the content that he puts out, sometimes can be polarising and controversial. Would that be fair? I think that would be very fair. And I would just say in general, I believe that that’s the kind of content that a lot of Americans love.
14:27
The more controversial you are, the more followers you have, because you’re essentially alienating 50% of people, but you’re strongly attracting another 50%. You know, it’s like the people that try to be moderate and, and sometimes reasonable in their comments
14:47
are usually like they have a measly following, because people are like, Oh, I can’t get I can’t get amped up about what you’re saying. You’re just being too reasonable, you know, so well, and let’s be honest, that’s probably why Spotify is paying the dude 100
15:00
million dollars, it wasn’t because he was, you know, the pinnacle of bipolarity in terms of how he approaches subjects. So Right. That’s the other part of it is I feel like they had an idea of what they were walking into. They probably didn’t know, to the extent I don’t know, like, that’s another question to ask, when you have a company this large. And I know we’re going to talk about like this whole exclusivity agreement, like you’re accepting whatever is coming with that person. And with that content, yes. And I actually read something right before we get on about his deal. And he basically, oh, okay, so let me let me see if I can find it. This is just like reporting on the fact that he got this deal with Spotify. This is from May 2020. And then updated in July 2021. And we’ll link to this Yeah, yeah, that’s the link. It says Mr. Rogan, stressed repeatedly on social media that the deal would not change the nature of his show, or make him an employee of Spotify. And, and so and throughout the article, it basically is saying that, according to him, based on what he was agreeing to with Spotify, his show was not going to be changing, and that Spotify was not going to be like, essentially stopping him from saying what he would normally be saying on his show when he was just on his own. And so that was interesting to read, because of what we’re facing now. Right? Well, and Spotify is backing that up, because I read today, so I subscribe to pod News Daily, or I think it’s pod news, and then pod move daily. And I’ll link to those because they kind of help keep me up to date on what’s going on in the podcasting space. And apparently, the CEO of Spotify said, I understand the premise that because we have an exclusive deal with him, it’s really easy to conclude we endorse every word he says, and believe the opinions expressed by his guests, that’s absolutely not the case. Spotify doesn’t fit neatly into just one category. And so they’re really leaning into the idea that we’re not a publisher, right, a publisher would traditionally have editorial control. And that is not what they are saying, if you read further, and I’ll link to this article, that article technically is from the verge, but it was one of those podcast news emails that I get that link to it. It said, even though the Joe Rogan experience is exclusive, it is licensed content. They don’t have creative control over Joe Rogan’s content, we don’t approve his guests in advance, just like any other creator, we get his content when he publishes, and then we review it. And if it violates our policy, we take the appropriate enforcement actions. Yeah. Right.
17:54
But then it calls into question. I mean, I’m torn from a listener, right, just as someone who loves podcasts, if there truly is misinformation being thrown out, especially at a time where that misinformation can have really serious consequences, right. What should the role be in the people who are pushing content out? Yeah. But at the end of the day, is Spotify just a, like we were talking before with the RSS feed? Are they just like this tech company that’s taking that RSS feed and making it available? Right now? I don’t know. Well, I think that was kind of the I feel like that was one of the key pieces of the conversation in your Facebook post and in the thread. And all the comments were, you know, essentially people saying, well, Spotify should take this down, because it’s misinformation. And the kind of the other angle was probably more where I’m coming from is, is it Spotify, his responsibility to take something down? And I think it does come down to what is in their contract, what is in the agreement that they made when they said, we’re bringing you on to our platform exclusively. And when Joe signed the contracts and said, Yes, I’m coming, and I’m going to have my show on your platform exclusively. If the contract didn’t say something about the fact that they could, you know, remove content that they deemed misinformation or unacceptable, inappropriate, whatever you want to call it, that I don’t think that they should do that. Like I think it’s ultimately what they had in the contract. And that’s kind of I mean, my view on podcasting is if you truly want to be able to say what you want to say, and you don’t want to have limits placed on it, then don’t do an exclusive deal with a company that could have those regulations in place. Because really, like I said, like we were saying at the beginning. If you want to have an RSS feed, it can go out to any
20:00
Have the platforms out there. And people can access it wherever they, you know, whether it’s on the internet on your own website or through any of the podcast players. But if you’re in an exclusive contract, then there is something different about that type of audio content that someone’s consuming.
20:19
On the other piece that I’ve noticed is now I’ve heard that they’ve put kind of like a COVID-19. I don’t know if it’s a warning or whatever, but some sort of recognition that this podcast episode might contain information about COVID. Well, that’s not then just for their exclusive partners, right, like that is for content across the entire platform. And I did read somewhere that, you know, now podcasts that have very well vetted scientists and researchers are getting kind of tagged with the same sort of warning that someone else who might not really be in that space is getting, I’m like, well, that’s interesting. Again, it does call into question, like, what is misinformation? What is legitimate? You know, my background is science. So in my head, I like, I know where I feel like I stand with this, but from a content creator and having access to differing opinions, I feel like we should have access to it. But at what point does it become, you know, dangerous to the bigger society? And that is not what we’re here to answer.
21:31
That’s such a hard, hard question. But can I speak to that for a minute? Sure, like not not talking about COVID. But like, this has been kind of my perspective, because my podcast is very different, obviously, than Joe Rogan’s and different than yours.
21:47
But you know, my podcast is a faith based podcast. And I have guests on my podcast, and my approach has been, I mean, typically, I invite people that share my faith, right? Because it’s for that. But even within the world of faith, there are a lot of things that people have very different perspectives on. And I have guests on my show that have different perspectives than me. And I know that my listeners may have different perspectives than me as well. And so my kind of approach with like, what I share, is that I, I approach it that I don’t necessarily agree with everything that my guests believe or say, or do, like, if I had to only bring people on that I felt like, never shared any misinformation, then I would not have very many guests. Yeah. And I encourage my listeners to be discerning and to do their own research and to study and figure out where they land on the topics that we discussed. And I know it’s totally different. But in a lot of ways, I think that we, as a society, have kind of lost our ability to think critically. And we need to become better at learning how to think critically for ourselves, rather than having someone else tell us if information is accurate or not. I think it gets really dangerous when there’s one organisation or one place that’s like, this is the only accurate information and then people just stop thinking for themselves. Well, and to take it a step further, I feel like we’ve lost the ability to engage in conversations. I mean, you can even hear it and our voices, I feel like we’re kind of like tiptoeing into these different areas. The first thing we said when we got on today was like, are we really doing this?
23:48
And, and not because this is anything groundbreaking, but because I feel like maybe you and I kind of approached the content that we create. Similarly, I feel like we should be able to have dialogue with people who have differing opinions. And I think we need to get to a place where that is okay, and accepted, and you can sit in that discomfort and then move on. I’m just happy to even be having this type of conversation. Because I think for the more independent podcaster like myself, like you likely the people that are listening, you know, it begs the question of what do I need to be looking out for, you know, like, I want to make sure I’m putting myself on platforms that I feel really confident in, in that I’m putting out content, you know, that is authentic to me, and I’m partnering with people that are aligned with me. And so I think that’s kind of what we were hoping to have a conversation about. I mean, no one has approached me and said, Hey, Angie, will you let us stream go pitch yourself exclusively on our platforms? Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I was thinking about that because I was like, man, what would I do? Like, even I’ve thought about I have, you know, over the years
25:00
looked into getting sponsors for my show or looked into becoming part of a network. And those two things might be a little bit more relatable for some of your listeners. And for you and I to think about, okay, if I were to get a sponsor for my show, and they actually stood for something that I don’t believe in, what would I do? Like, would I agree? Because then I would be bringing in some revenue that I’m not, or what I say no, because I don’t stand by what that company stands for. Or the same thing with, you know, becoming part of a network. There’s some shows that I listened to. And just this morning, I heard another one that’s part of this new network. I don’t know if it’s new, but a network that I have just been hearing more about lately. And I’m like, I just started to wonder like, I wonder how these podcasts make the decision on what network to be a part of, and what is there a financial aspect to it? And again, those are questions that I think it’s easy to assume what you would do when you’re not even close to being in that position of, like you said, having an exclusive contract with a podcast company. But at the same time, if you were presented with a million dollars for your content, I think yeah, some of us would probably say yes, right? Even if we thought maybe down the line, there might be an issue where they might say, You know what, you got to take down that episode. So well, and I do think this kind of, I don’t even know what to call this. But like this incident with like the relationship between Joe Rogan and Spotify, I think it has definitely opened our eyes to oh, we might want to think like, a few more steps ahead than we have been, with the content that we’re putting out and how we’re approaching if we’re going to monetize, I’m likely launching a second show that’s not really in the business space. And I do have plans to monetize it. And part of that, initially, I’m thinking of ads and sponsorships. But then I started thinking as this unfolded, well, maybe that Patreon community idea is not such a bad idea, because you’re then creating content for your listeners, and you don’t have other people, you know, having expectations and guidelines for you to follow. So I think that’s really kind of an interesting thing for folks to think about. For sure. Yeah, one thing I wanted to touch on because as this kind of went live, last week, we were in a team meeting. And one thing that we’ve been doing with our clients who we pitch on their behalf, is creating Spotify, play, play lists of their previous podcast interviews, so that if we’re pitching to Susie Q host, she can just quickly click on this link and see that this guest has been on 25 other shows and can listen to some of those if she feels, you know that it would make sense. And in our meeting last week, one of our teammates was like, Oh, should we move that type of playlist over to pod chaser, like just curate a list there instead of sharing a Spotify link? And initially, I said yes, like, sure, that’s fine, we can go ahead and do that. And then two days later, as I kind of wrestled with, like, what should my response be as a host? Because I saw, you know, Brene, Brown is not publishing on Spotify, but she has that exclusive contract. But I do know, and I’ve seen in some podcasting circles, that people are pulling their show off of Spotify, and thinking like, well, Spotify is not going to really feel it. If I take my show. Like, what is the actual impact of me doing that other than disrupting our small business? Yeah. And like what you said before about having a variety of opinions, if I were to pull my show off of Spotify, because maybe I didn’t agree with some of the content that was getting put out, then it precludes my voice from being heard by people who are listening on Spotify. So I actually went back to that teammate, and I was like, no, like, we’re not going to create more work on our team for this. It’s also getting flushed out. I mean, you and I laughed, Spotify doesn’t even know the right answer. You know, like, there are people with far more experience in the audio digital space than you and I that are grappling with, what’s the right move here? And so I don’t know that this is an instance for those of us that are navigating really small teams with really tight timeframes of getting work done to make some of those reactions unless we feel it very much aligns with who we are. Yeah, right. Yeah. And I think that it’s, yeah, I think it’s a very personal decision, you know, in terms of what you want to do about the Spotify situation. But I also think it’s just something to be thinking about, like you said, getting steps ahead. I liked that you brought that up as a content creator, but also as people who may be pitching ourselves to be on other shows.
30:00
I think it also ties into, like, who shows do you want to show up on? And? And what I was referring to earlier about? Who do I invite onto my show? And what level of responsibility do I have for what something My guest says, you know, like me putting out an episode, if my guest says something that I don’t agree with, like, where’s the line? And that’s actually something I’ve wrestled with. And likewise, if I’m on a show, hosted by someone that, again, that maybe I don’t align with perfectly in our values, or in our whatever beliefs, all of that, does that mean that that’s a bad thing? Like I, I tend to be more on the line of, I am okay with going on someone’s show. That doesn’t align completely with me. Because like you said, to have that conversation to have that dialogue, I think is healthy or to have a guest on my show that might share a differing perspective. When it’s done respectfully, I think it can be really healthy. But at the same time, I think there are some times when if someone sees you were on XYZ show, they might assume that you agree with XYZ person, right?
31:17
And it’s, I don’t have an answer here. I’m just sort of sharing my thoughts. No, this is perfect, because actually, there was something that kind of arose internally a week ago. And this is where I say, like, as a smaller business owner than Spotify and Rogen, I feel like my time is better spent doing this other type of work. So I was invited to be a part of something like, I’m just gonna leave it very vanilla. But I knew the person that I was invited to kind of participate and work together with, I knew that over the last couple of years, our thoughts have become very divergent from one another. And so much so that it didn’t make sense for us to have any level of working together. And it was an easy decision for me to say yes or no. But then I grappled with the idea of what to express? Why, like, do I just give this vanilla answer of No, thank you, I’m not available? Or do I really, like own my thoughts, and my opinion and say that, and that’s actually what I opted to do is the second and it was hard, but it made me actually feel like more of a leader in my business. And it was so clear to me when I was asked that my answer was no, it helped me figure out like, well, where’s my line? You know, right, what is that line in the sand for me, and then to really, just very candidly, and without emotion, say, This is why, I hope you understand, let the chips fall where they may and they didn’t fall, like, I think that’s what we can do is people are having these really high elevated conversations that don’t really impact my day to day, let’s be candid, you know what I mean? Like whatever, Spotify and Rogen decide good on them. It’s not really gonna affect your life. No. But I think we can take this as an opportunity to examine some of the more micro-level decisions that we have day in and day out, and make sure that those feel in alignment. I love that point. And I just released an episode on my on my business podcast, that was the name of your podcast.
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I didn’t say that, man, I need to get better at
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someone that can help you with that.
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So my first podcast that I launched is the Christian woman leadership podcast. And then my newer podcast is the Christian woman business podcast. So not real creative, just leadership and business. So let’s go though it’s for searching. Yep.
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I am often found because of those search terms. So I tell people, Don’t Be Clever With Your Podcast name. But on my business podcast, I did an episode about how to decide what opportunities to say yes to, or what opportunities to pursue. And it’s really along what you just shared. The first point I made was, is it aligned with your goals right now? Like, is it even related to what you’re trying to do right now in your business? But the second one was, who is the host of the event or the summit or the podcast that you’re thinking about being part of? And do you have alignment? Is there a connection? And I think that taking that time to figure that out for yourself, like where is your own personal line on who you’re going to collaborate with? Or be a guest on or bring on to your own show or all those different things? I think that’s such a good thing to be considering right now. And also to consider if you run into a situation like you did, with being invited to something
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That doesn’t align. How are you going to handle that? Because most of the time, I think people do option one, when you share your options. Yeah, for sure. They just would have been much easier. Yeah, that’s the easier thing. But I did have one of my clients run into a situation recently with a potential client that she was going to work with. But the client had a business that she just couldn’t feel good about, like being involved in. And she was like, What do I do? And I said, you know, I mean, you can just say, I’m not able to take you on right now. But I think really, the best thing to do is to say, our values aren’t aligned. I don’t, I don’t feel like I could serve you in your business because of my values, not aligning with yours. And, and that’s a much harder conversation to have. But it is something that I think that the more we have those conversations, I don’t know, I feel like the more we grow, and the more people will respect us for standing by that. Yeah. And it was interesting for me, because in the scheduling piece of it, the person I was interacting with wasn’t the actual host. And so she did ask, is it for political reasons? Is that like the difference? And I said, No, it’s not political. I mean, God, I hope I’m friends with people who have different political views, you know, like, I choose to collaborate with people that have different political leanings than me, I’m totally open. Like that, to me is what makes life and business beautiful, right, as interacting with people that have differences of opinions. And then I actually took a minute to like, share, specifically, like what I felt was the misalignment. And that part was probably the most helpful. It was like the equivalent of me journaling and thinking like, Okay, why was your gut reaction so quickly? No. And it was these things. And so for me now, I’m like, Oh, this seems to be like an SOP, like in our business. Right? We say no to these types of things. So I don’t know. It was interesting, actually, that popped up around the time that this happened with Spotify and Rogen, and you and I are going to talk about it. Yeah. I know, I’ve had a couple situations when I’ve had a guest. And as the words were coming out of their mouth, I was like, Oh, my word like, Oh, no.
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So again, if you’re a podcast host figuring it out, how are you going to deal with it when you have someone who says something that you 100% Don’t agree with? Well, so what do you do? Yeah, like, what do you do? I wish I could say I’ve always handled it really well. And I don’t think I have, but it hasn’t been very often. One time, we just did some editing on the back end, honestly, because I knew it wasn’t even so much that I disagreed with what she was saying. I was like, Oh, she’s gonna alienate half of my audience, if we put this out. And it was such a small part of the overall conversation, that we edited the content. And just, you know, I guess you could say, We censored it. But, you know, I feel like it was a way to give the value of the conversation of the things that I felt would be most helpful to my audience. And as a podcast host, I think that’s, you know, keeping my audience first and foremost is key.
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I think that there’s been a few times when I have just simply shared after the fact like, hey, you know, I don’t totally align with that part of the conversation. So whether we edited it or not, I can’t remember all the exhibits, because I’ve been doing this a little while, almost four years. But I think it’s helpful to just have that. And actually one of the things that is now part of the SOP I will say this now, after that one that I was like, like was pretty, a pretty extreme statement that she made that I felt like wasn’t going to land and didn’t land with me or my co host. after that. I was like, Okay, we have to do a little more research on our guests before we bring them on. Totally. That was the next step was we’re going to listen to some of their stuff. We’re going to look at their website a little more closely. We’re going to do a little more digging, before we say yes, because I just didn’t expect I didn’t know where she stood on something. And so it was like, oh, okay, I might have figured that out if I had listened to a little bit more of what she had to say. Well, and as you said, we might call it censoring. I mean, that is producing like that is true, that’s a better word. Yeah. That is producing a podcast for your audience with their best interest in mind. And that Facebook thread a lot of people are throwing around censorship and like, oh, censorship is only when a government does that. But I mean, it is a word like it doesn’t have, you know, I mean, people at different levels can censor other people like Spotify if they want consent.
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Joe Rogan that is within the scope of what they’re able to do aside, I don’t know what the contract says, You know what I mean? Right? And so, yeah, and that’s essentially what we are as podcast hosts, if we look at ourselves as podcast hosts, we’re kind of like Spotify in this situation. We own the platform that it’s going out on. And so we are responsible for what is going out over the airwaves. And so you’re looking at what my guest is saying on my show? And do I feel good about sharing that with my audience? And there might be times that you just decide not to air an episode, and I have people sign off on that one, before they come on to that the episode may or may not air if I don’t feel that it’s a fit for my audience. I won’t air it. This actually came up with someone I was talking with last week who had someone that they interviewed for their show, it wasn’t because she was, you know, like, there was misinformation or that she disagreed with anything. The interviewer, he said, it just wasn’t a great interview. And yeah, like, you know, I just don’t feel like my audience is gonna resonate with that. And she ended up putting it out anyway, just to kind of like, get it off her plate. And I will say that as a host is an uncomfortable thing to do. I’ve never really had to navigate it. And now I’m like, oh, did I just set the precedent for not taking the easy way out? Like, do I need to? Do I need to share candidly, and sometimes I think, yes, sometimes I think no, you know, if you interview someone, and they’re just kind of word vomiting, how much of an editing lift Do you want to make? Right, right.
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Yeah, yeah. And I think it depends on the relationship you have with the person, you know, all of that. There’s so many factors on how you might share.
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Oh, I’m not airing your interview after the fact. That was somebody? Yeah. And why? I know. Yeah. So um, this is great. I feel like it was. I feel like I needed to have this conversation, selfishly, to process. Is there anything else that you feel like we should cover? For listeners who might be watching what’s happening in the space? I think that the only thought that I wanted to mention that we I don’t know that we get into super in depth was just that I think that as podcasters for anyone who’s listening, who is a podcaster, or even just listening to podcasts, but I think that we have a great opportunity for conversations in this medium. Like, I think it’s so amazing that this technology exists and that you and I can be talking today and that we can be having this conversation. And like you said, to treat it with respect, but also to recognize that there are going to be times where we may run into people that we disagree with. And like just to sort of start to process, how do I want to handle that in advance, and not to look at disagreement or differing perspectives on a lot of things, as you know, something to run away from, but actually something to engage in, and to start to have conversations that are hard. I don’t know, that’s something that I just am looking to try and grow in and develop. And I think that the more we are able to have those hard conversations, the better. We’re all going to be for it. Absolutely. One of my favorite books is from the hosts of that show Pantsu politics, and it’s called, I think you’re wrong, but I’m listening. And I feel like if we all just adopted a little bit more of that it would be a pretty amazing place to be in right now. Yeah. Love that. All right, sir. So if folks want to connect with you, they can definitely listen to either of your podcasts. And if they’re interested in just kind of, are you on Instagram? I know you and I were on Facebook messaging each other. I am on Instagram. Yeah. Yesterday, Esther D Littlefield on Instagram. Yeah, perfect. So go check out Esther. check out her podcast. I’m excited because I feel like you had an episode of disagreement. I did. I also had an episode of disagreement on the leadership podcast recently. Yeah. Okay. Cool. We’ll link to that in the show notes too, because I’m sure that could be like a nice little part two to this one. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, listener, for getting this far. Here’s what I would love from you: your feedback on this episode? What are your thoughts on the growing pains, I would say, that Spotify is experiencing?
But candidly, I really feel like the growing pains are ones that the podcasting space in general is experiencing.
What are your thoughts on how these types of events are impacting you? How are these mega million exclusivity deals impacting you, and what are your thoughts on those in general? And also, I want to know what you were thinking about this whole
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concept of being aware with who you align yourself with, and whether that impacts your day to day and how you are choosing to be a guest, and how you are choosing guests for your show. I would really just love your feedback on this so that I can either lean into this a little bit more if there are developments that need updating and conversations that need to be had. Or if there’s a way really just for me to support you as you navigate this ever changing landscape. So shoot me an email at Angie at the pod Weiss group.com That’s pod wise with the Z or you can message me on Instagram at the pod vise group. I would just love to hear feedback and your thoughts because this is a conversation. This is not something that has been decided. I think it’s ever evolving. And I just want to know what you who are also in the podcasting space think of this. So that is all for today, my friend. Until next time, be well and be visible.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai