At first glance, you might be confused as to why, as a guest, the struggles podcast hosts have in knowing how to market a podcast is relevant to you. Truth is, guests play a significant role in marketing the shows that they’re on. And, bonus, we can learn a thing or two about marketing from the core tenets of podcast marketing, too.
By showing that you understand the goals of a podcast host, you’ll demonstrate that you are a valuable guest and partner. What’s more, you’ll likely develop a new business relationship and increase opportunities for collaboration in the future.
Jeremy Enns is the CEO of podcast marketing agency Counterweight Creative. He is the creator of Podcast Marketing Academy, a 6-month, high-intensity program for brands and creators who are serious about building a sustainable marketing system for their podcast, converting casual interest into brand evangelists.
I’ve taken part in a number of his trainings and can attest to the value of the content he creates. So much so, I’m an affiliate for Jeremy’s upcoming 3-part Podcast Traction Workshop for hosts (affiliate link) and will ALSO be attending.
Much of what we cover in today’s episode comes down to research, similar to what we do when we’re looking for new visibility opportunities. If you can understand what the host is trying to achieve, the struggles they have in knowing how to market a podcast, as well as what they’re providing for their audience, this could be the start of a beautiful friendship!
How to Market a Podcast (as a Guest) with Jeremy Enns
Topics covered include:
- Why marketing a podcast doesn’t have to be slimy or gross if you find a tactic that feels authentic to you
- The four pillars of Jeremy’s Podcast Marketing Academy
- How Jeremy uses Twitter to build community
- Why ‘Exposure’ is not just about numbers – it’s about getting in front of the right audience
- How podcast guests can support hosts in growing their show and marketing their podcast
- Details of Jeremy’s upcoming 3-part Podcast Traction Workshop (affiliate link)
So can you see the value in helping podcast hosts market their podcasts? And are you going to be tweaking your own podcast guesting strategy?
And I hope to see you inside Jeremy’s 3-part Podcast Traction Workshop.
The Podwize Group’s resources mentioned in this episode:
- Join the Podwize Group email list and get your copy of Podcast Pitches That Convert at thepodwizegroup.com/pitches
- Learn more about The Podwize Group’s services
- Follow The Podwize Group on Instagram
Podcasts mentioned in this episode:
- Ep. 68 of Go Pitch Yourself: How to Pitch a Podcast Quickly (Do it Messy!)
Other resources mentioned in this episode:
- Join me for Jeremy’s 3-part Podcast Traction Workshop (affiliate link)
- Resources and information about Jeremy and Counterweight Creative at counterweightcreative.co/pitchyourself
- Connect with Jeremy on Twitter and Instagram
Now it’s time for you to get out there and Go Pitch Yourself! Can’t wait to connect again!
Interested in connecting with other entrepreneurs who are using podcasts to grow their business?
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Transcript for How to Market a Podcast (as a Guest) with Jeremy Enns
Please Note: This transcript was computer-generated so please be mindful of errors. Thank you.
There are all these various activities that we could be engaging in that are actually fun to do. They’re actually life giving and energy giving, and we enjoy doing them. And they’re helpful to other people. And they’re helpful to our partners and collaborators. And yet we box in marketing into this little concept of things that we don’t like doing and don’t want to do and feel gross to us. And so I think that before we get into any conversation about tactics or strategy or anything, it’s like realizing that marketing actually can be something that’s fun. It can be something we enjoy doing. It’s something that we can feel good about. It’s something that we feel is actually an additive thing to the world that we’re putting out there. There are certainly forms of marketing that aren’t but you know, we don’t need to have anything to do with those we can find and choose these other ways that are actually good for everyone involved. Marketing isn’t about who comes, it’s about who stays.
Well, hello, there pitches. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of go pitch yourself. I am your host, Angie Trueblood. If you’re new here, welcome. If you’re an OG listener, I am so happy to have you back again. This episode is one that I have been hoping for. For a while I’ve been chatting with Jeremy Enns, founder of Counterweight Creative. Now, I love the tagline for his business. counterweight creative is a podcast strategy and production company for scrappy brands looking to punch above their weight. I just love that. And he is going to chat with us today about the framework that he uses to help podcast hosts market their show. Now if you are not a podcast host do not tune out. There are a lot of practical applications for you. In this episode. You might be thinking though, why on earth would you need to know this information as a guest if you’re not a podcast host because truly having a solid understanding of the goals of a podcast host, which primarily is reaching more listeners and the ways that they can accomplish this can totally put you in a position to partner with them. If you understand their goals and how they are able to accomplish them, then you can partner with them and amplify some of the ways that they are marketing their podcast and help them grow their listenership. When you partner with a host in this way, it increases the chances that you both might collaborate and or refer people to one another in the future. So it’s a great relationship builder, understanding the needs of the host and ways that you can help them meet that. So I’m hoping you’ll enjoy this interview with Jeremy we met a few years ago. And I’ve actually taken two of his previously free programs, and was really blown away as to how much value he gave in a free offering. So I’ve wanted to have him on the show and to share him with you for a while. I appreciate his energy, his integrity, and candidly that willingness to share his expertise with a no holds barred approach. So without further ado, let’s dig into my interview with Jeremy Enns. Jeremy, welcome to go pitch yourself. I am so excited to have you as a guest on the show today. How are you?
I am fantastic. Angie, thank you so much for having me on.
Yeah, I think this will be great. I love hosting people who are experts in the podcast hosting space, because I think it gives listeners just a different perspective. You know, when we come in as pitching ourselves to be guests, we hold in very high regard the podcaster to whom we are pitching. So knowing that you’ve worked behind the scenes on so many shows and coached so many hosts, I think it’ll be really valuable for our listeners.
Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a huge part of it as well. And one of the things I talk about is guesting on other shows as valuable for podcasters to grow their shows for business people looking to grow their audiences. And I think that’s one of the great advantages that a podcast host has is they’re able to kind of know what goes into it. They know how to make better pitches. And so yeah, definitely something where it helps to know that behind the scenes,
yeah, for sure. So for people who might not be familiar with you, I would love for you to give a bit of context of both who you are personally because you have a pretty cool lifestyle, I would say and also professionally because you’ve been in podcasting for a good while now. So just share with our listeners a little bit about who you are, if you don’t mind.
Yeah, so actually these two, the lifestyle that you alluded to, alludes to the fact that I have been traveling full time for the past. Five and a half coming up on I guess five and a half as soon as six years. In a little bit. My partner Kelly, she just passed her six year anniversary a couple of weeks ago of traveling with us We met while we were traveling, we kind of knew each other beforehand, through the internet and then ended up working together and then ended up traveling together and then now end up dating and our partner and living together. So that progression has gone alongside all this as well. But yeah, really, I got into podcasting as a way to, you know, build a remote business that I could run from anywhere. But travel was always that thing for me that I was like, this is, this is what I want to be doing. I took a year off at one point and did a full year of traveling. And over the course that year, I was like, How do I do more of this? And soon after that was discovered, I had no idea that podcasting existed at that time. But I came back, got just a manual labor job doing landscaping, which I’d done before as well. I started listening to podcasts and discovered them around that time, the first shows I listened to where I kind of discovered this world of online business all at the same time. And kind of within a year, I was trained as a sound engineer, and I initially wanted to work in the music industry. And some point along the way was like, Okay, this is an exhausting kind of career to try and make it in. At least if you go that route, I was gonna say the traditional route, but really any way to make it in the music industry is not for the faint of heart. And I realized, okay, I don’t know that I love it this much. And so kind of pivoted into podcasting. Once I discovered that and within basically six months of getting my first client I had enough clients that I was making more than my day job. And within two weeks of quitting, the day job was off on a plane over to the UK was the first place I went, and have been traveling ever since. So that’s a short version of my backstory. And I guess to expand a little bit on that, I started out as a podcast editor and ended up growing a team and an agency. And we’ve been doing that now for the same amount of time. I’ve been traveling for five and a half years, and then have recently just fallen in love with marketing, specifically applied to podcasting. And so have really been building out that side of the business and now train podcasters how to grow their shows as well.
I’d love it. I’m hearing your story about growing your agency and having clients and you traveling. And I always laugh, I always get asked questions. People think all my clients are local, you know, and then they’re surprised to know that we serve people right now. We have a client in Australia, and then California. And so I’m sure people in your non online business circle are surprised that you can run such a thriving global business. I mean, at this point, because you’re traveling the globe. So that’s awesome. Yeah. So I wanted to have you connected, I think we connected actually over COVID. Because I think when we last talked to you might have been like in Canada over. I don’t think it was a quarantine, but you’re trying to figure out what was next for you all, like where to travel. And I just felt like our energy was really complementary and how we approach podcasting, I also have a deep love of the medium. And that’s why I got into it. But I love the marketing approach that you take, because it’s so authentic to really serve your listeners. And I thought, all right, let’s have Jeremy on and talk to our listeners, both podcast hosts, and folks who are just happy and content to be podcast guests, and really understand what it takes to grow a show. And then we can have a conversation as to what is the role that the guest can play in this. Because honestly, if you show up as a podcast guest and you can help that host grow their show, then you likely can collaborate moving forward, at a minimum, you have a colleague, but oftentimes you can be invited back to the show. So there’s lots in it for the podcast guests to understand how shows are able to grow. So is there sort of a framework? I know you’ve put a lot of structure around this in your podcast Marketing Academy. But can you share some of the high level pieces that the host should be thinking about as they’re looking to market and grow their podcast?
Yeah, I mean, I think and maybe let’s even back up a little bit first and just talk about your mentioned kind of my approach to marketing. And I think that like a lot of people, I think probably most of your audience is at least more comfortable with at least one form of marketing that is guesting on other podcasts. And that’s something that I am open to and actively doing already. And I think that this is something that comes very naturally to a lot of us who might just, you know, like talking with other people and having interesting conversations about the things we’re interested in. And it feels like almost, I think in our minds, at least a lot of times that oh, this is the exception like this, this Almost doesn’t count as marketing because it feels good to do like how can that be associated with marketing, but really like, my approach to marketing is that there are all these kind of various activities that we could be engaging in, that are actually fun to do. They’re actually life giving and energy giving and we enjoy doing them and they’re helpful to other people and they’re helpful to our partners and collaborators, much like podcast guesting and yet we kind of box in marketing into this little kind of concept of things that we don’t like doing and don’t want to do and feel like growing to us. And so I think that before we get into any conversation about tactics or strategy or anything, it’s like realizing that marketing actually can be something that’s fun, it can be something we enjoy doing. It’s something that we can feel good about. It’s something that we feel, you know, is actually an additive kind of thing to the world that we’re putting out there, which you know, that there are certainly forms of marketing that aren’t. But you know, we don’t need to have anything to do with those we can find and choose these other ways that are actually good for everyone involved. So I think that’s like the first place to start when we’re talking about marketing and getting the conversation going.
Well, and I love that you called out the idea of feeling slimy or gross, because we definitely, inside of the pod wise, Co Op, there’s definitely some challenges or tension that people have around the follow up. And actually, even the pitching, right, so there are certain spots along the way to get you to the feelgood interview, that have tension around them. And I think if we can reframe that, as you know, we’re looking we’re offer up our expertise or experience to serve others, then we can frame up the parts of marketing that, again, there might be a little bit of hesitancy around. But just to get us to those places that do feel good. But I like that you brought that out, because I know our listeners have struggles around that. And I think that’s one of the main reasons they might not prioritize pitching. They love guesting, we all do. Landing the interviews takes a little bit of action. So thank you for pointing that out. And pointing out that marketing doesn’t have to feel gross, there’s a right way to do it. And you can find one that’s authentic to who you are. Yeah.
And I think that that’s gonna be different for everyone. Like there’s people in my academy as well, who we just kind of did a very small kind of internal bit of a guesting push as well, with which was actually initiated by one of our members who was looking to do that and was looking for accountability. And one of the things that she came out of it at the end was like, actually, guessing isn’t the thing for me, it’s like, I don’t really like any part of it. And it’s like, okay, well, like, that’s just not something that you’re gonna engage in. And now she’s getting really excited about SEO, which is something that I have to like. It feels like pushing a boulder up a hill, when I think about SEO, even though I like writing, it’s all the other parts of the research and, and all the prep work. And so I think, you know, there’s like many positive forms of marketing that don’t necessarily need to be icky or slimy. But even among those, everybody has their own kind of tolerance for them and places where their energy flows, they feel inspired, and it feels like something they actually are, are kind of compelled to do to some level. So I think yeah, finding that. The other thing that you mentioned, that I think is worth talking about is he talked about like the pitching being the hard part. And this actually ties into kind of the first pillar that I built podcast Marketing Academy around, which is this idea of like your, your marketing foundation, which has to do with your product. And I think when I have done pitching for collaborations or partnerships or podcast guesting or anything like that, and it’s felt uncomfortable, it’s because I haven’t really believed in whatever I was really pitching at the time. And, you know, there’s, there’s, to some extent, I did believe in it. But sometimes I almost make the analogy to you know, when people say you like find your your partner, your husband, or your wife, or your partner, whatever it is, and you realize, like, oh, I never actually knew what like it was supposed to feel like before I thought I had this like I thought I was in love before. But that wasn’t really it. And I think sometimes it’s the same way with a product or an offer. And this was the same thing for me when I built podcast Marketing Academy, I had a couple other products in the past that I was like, this is a great idea. This is like so needed. And you know, I hadn’t done a lot of the background market research and interviews with potential clients and stuff like that. And I thought it was a good idea. But a lot of those actually ended up flopping and failing. And then when I had podcast Marketing Academy, I, there was just this different feeling that things clicked into place. And I was like, Oh, like this is the absolute best thing for this type of person that could exist. And I’ve created this. And I believe so heavily in it that I have no problem pitching people and getting on sales calls with people and writing the copy. And like everything just flows smoothly. And so I think a lot of times around pitching or whether it’s starting a podcast, it’s looking at that, like, what is that the core of all your marketing, like that’s your product or your message or like whatever it is that you’re looking to share with people. And if that’s out of alignment, or it’s not quite there, all everything else that comes after that is going to feel a little bit out of sync. And so I think that that’s really the place to start looking at, like what is the ultimate offer that you have, whether that’s a podcast, or a product or whatever that is, and making sure that that’s actually solid? And yeah, a lot of times, there’s like a lot of iteration that goes into that. So I know I’m someone who, historically and I mean, I still fight against this today. I always want to like you know, see the finish line, the end result, you know, before I even start and have every step of the way mapped out. And I’ve kind of realized like, well that’s it’s just impossible, and you just need to get started at some point and accept that. Okay, at the start, whether it’s creating a new show or you know, a newsletter or whatever is like, it’s not going to be the best version of it probably actually, like, the first, the first version is, is and maybe should be the worst version of it. Yeah. And you kind of just have to accept that and be like, Okay, well, I’m gonna figure this thing out along the way, and everything’s gonna get tighter and better as I keep doing it. So I think for me, it just all starts with that foundation. And you know, doing what you can to have the best possible Foundation, the best product at the start, but then also being open to like, okay, it’s only going to improve from here, just need to get the reps in initially, and kind of pull that together over time. Yeah,
We just released an episode today on the go pitch yourself podcast, on pitching messy. This is where you and I are different. I’m one of those people that jumps in and like, we’ll figure this out on the way. And inside of the Co Op, we take our members through learning how to pitch but we do it first with an eye on doing b plus work like it, you don’t need to have a one sheet like you can get pitches out without a lot of these bells and whistles. And I think people overcomplicate what that whole long process is going to look like rather than just let’s just get our foot in the door, let’s just get a couple of pitches out. We’re running a challenge in a week or so. And it’s all about just getting five pitches out in five days. And they’re going to be good, they’re going to be aligned, they’re not going to be slimy, or, you know, robotic like the ones that we get. But taking that step forward and gaining momentum can be so important.
Yeah, well, I think like with pitching in, and with podcasting as well, the bar is a lot lower than we make it out to be in our minds. And so like, like you just mentioned a lot of those robotic pitches. And I’ve seen, I don’t know, on Twitter in the past week, I’ve seen a whole bunch of people, whether it’s podcast pitches, or some other kind of pitch with just, you know, it’s a form email that I saw one this morning, actually, that was somebody was was getting pitched for a blog guest post. And it was just like, we would like to write about a topic on your blog or contribute about the topic. And it’s just like, oh, and unfortunately, like, this is almost the norm and what people expect. And so I think B plus is actually way, way, way, way better than the average actually,
when the average is d minus a b plus is super surprising.
Almost as long as it’s coherent, it ended. There’s no typos, or you’re already
My name. Right. Awesome. Thank you. That’s awesome. Let’s refresh. So that first pillar of marketing then is making sure that you feel confident in your offers.
Yeah, so really, it’s the foundation. And so like the offer itself, it is at the core there. And so when we’re talking about, you know, creating a podcast, that is the podcast itself, and there are a lot of things that go into that, such as the show concept, like what is the central idea at the core of a show? And unfortunately, I mean, well, fortunately, or unfortunately, like the bar is being raised on what is good enough for an interesting enough and compelling enough for a show concept. And so at this point, I always kind of cringe when I hear someone say, Well, yeah, I have a new show. It’s in interviewing, like interesting people about, you know, how they started their business. And it’s like, okay, like, that’s the same
example I give, million like Journey business podcasts out there, like, what is or even not journey related, like lifestyle related. But before we go into the second one, I want to point out, because I think this foundation part is really important for the guests to do their homework on. Like, if you really want to have a B plus A pitch. It’s understanding what that host foundation and goal is with their show. And so there’s a lot of ways to find that out quickly. You know, it doesn’t have to take you listening to five episodes. But if you, as someone who’s pitching that host, reads the description that they put in Apple podcast, and you go to their website and see what they sell, right, you can likely tap into what their goal is with their podcast. And so knowing that as a guest can really help you come up with a topic that is super relevant, and something that that hosts would really want to welcome on their show, because you understand the role that you can play in helping them achieve their goals with the show.
Yeah, and I mean, I think that this, like tied into this foundation is the idea of differentiation and positioning. And so as a guest, yeah, if you can come on there, and you understand the differentiation and the positioning, you can help craft something and present to that host something that really fits in with their brand, and is hopefully, like entirely different than an interview you would give on anyone else’s show. And it’s going to be around a lot of similar content. It’s not like you’re going to be having to come up with all this new content that you don’t know anything about. But it’s framed in a way that is unique for this show. And so I think that’s such a huge piece that’s is becoming so much more important in podcasting as podcasting grows and becomes more popular, but not enough people are really taking that strategic approach to it. And I think that that’s, you know, a conversation when you get into things like differentiation and positioning and all these words, it sounds so so business II. And yet I think a lot of business owners don’t even think about that and kind of breezed over it. But for podcasters. And for businesses, I think that if you want to have success in a crowded market, those are two of your biggest tools at your disposal.
Yeah, like our show is basically, you know, like most every episode is very actionable. If someone and I’ve gotten them, pitch me to talk about their journey to, you know, growing a six figure business, especially if it has nothing to do with podcast guessing or podcasting. You know, that’s a no. So knowing what is the core angle really, of this show? And the premise of it is super important, because you can craft your pitch around it. Awesome. Yep. All right. On to number two, Jeremy.
Yeah, number two centers around the content. And so there’s a lot of different kind of levels that we could get into here. And that could be at the episode specific level of content, all the way up to the show level of like, what are the topics and themes that are coming through in your episodes on a smaller or more zoomed in approach, then the big show concept, then we’re getting down into some of your, like content buckets and some of the main categories of things you keep coming back to, and what that kind of listener journey is, and how you’re crafting episodes to fit into that. And then also, especially if you have launches, or products, or services, or promotions, or anything like that, how are you using the content on your show to actually lead people toward those things with what’s actually kind of an intentional approach, because I think a lot of times people, they start shows and they’re just like, well, like, I’ll just get customers because of it, right? Like people will listen to it. And they’ll just end up working with me. And you know, maybe over time that happens, but they probably need, if you’re just going to take that approach, probably you need a very dedicated email marketing strategy as well to kind of push those people and give them the nudges. But especially with launches like this is one of the most, it’s one of the simplest kind of strategies for me, is helping people just come up with a, basically a content strategy that works hand in hand with their launch or promotion strategy. But a lot of people they don’t, they don’t kind of link these two things up, like they might have, you know, an ad or something on their episodes leading up to launch, but they’re not really seeing the launch with, you know, by really digging into some of the listener pain points and having episodes that tie into the product that they’re actually launching, and maybe featuring like a past customer or listener, testimonial type episodes where they go through that listeners story related to this product launch that’s coming up. And all of these are really easy things to do. And they actually just subconsciously start getting the rest of the listeners like, keyed up for this problem. And then you have the launch probably maybe through email more than through the podcast, podcasts, calls to action are kind of hard to take action on. And you can promote it. But you know, it doesn’t really work as well as email. So usually what I like to think of doing with that, in terms of a kind of promotion strategy is kind of just like, get people thinking about the topics that you are going to be talking about in some of your promotional materials, using the podcast, and then actually make that push through email.
Oh, I love that. Well, so especially if you’re helping them organize their content strategy around launches, how far out? Do you sort of plan the content? I mean, do you? Do you guys work with clients and have them map out six months worth of content a year? What does that look like internally for y’all ideally?
Yeah, I mean, I usually like to kind of do a blended approach, because a lot of people do have this feeling like, you know, I want to be able to speak to things that are on my mind and not have that feel, you know, stale or disconnected when I record it today. And I’m feeling really excited about it, and then it comes out six months later. So usually, I would say at least having the episode plan around the launches, and so if you know, okay, I’m gonna have three launches this year, and they’re in May, and July and October or something like that, then we can say, Okay, well, we’re gonna kind of just slot in these episodes. And we’re gonna start looking for if we have listeners or past clients or customers who might be good fit for testimonials, we want to just keep in contact with those people to see if they’re open to doing this, and get those scheduled well in advance. And then also, but keeping an eye out for people who might go through your product right now and see who might be a good fit for those later launches, maybe. And so you can kind of start to just see those a little bit in advance. And so usually I’ll look at that, take the big picture of the year view and just at least start with those product launches or promotions, map those out and then pencil in the episodes, but you don’t need to hold them to the exact topic or anything like that. But just say, Okay, if we’ve got this launch coming up in you know, this month, then we want to make sure four to six weeks in advance. We’re starting to get things moving in that direction. So those are kind of Yeah, kind of themed there. And then everything around those in between those launches can be a bit more, you know, not so far planned out in advance and you have some room to maneuver.
Yeah, I like that like imagining the launches as sort of the big rocks and getting those figured out first. Another thing from a guessing perspective, is if you know people are launching regularly if some of the hosts that you would love to be a guest on their show are doing a good job of leveraging their podcasts to lead into launches, you can definitely pitch topics that help support those launches. So like, if you’re in someone’s program, we have a member of the co op who she landed an interview on Amy Porterfield, she was a member of one of her programs, I forget which one that was launching soon. And so we crafted a pitch around how that program helped her. You know, because in some of the really big programs, you don’t have a lot of one to one interaction with the leader. But if you can really draw out the impact that that program had on you, that’s one option. And then if you have sort of a complementary offering that could support the people that would likely be going into that launch, then I remember I launched I am pitched Jacqueline Malone, she hosts the go to girl podcast, she released some pitch templates a couple of years ago. And I was like, girl, why don’t you have me on and I can talk about how to personalize those pitch templates. And it was just, uh, yeah, let’s totally do it, it makes sense. So definitely keep that in mind as a guest. Even if people are using their podcast to promote their own offerings, you can still support them in doing that.
Yeah, and I would say to the other thing that you mentioned, like, with Amy Porterfield example, if there is a program that you’ve been through that has been really helpful to you, like, one of the things I would recommend is, don’t always aim for the to make the pitch to go on their show immediately. But just send them like a monthly email, almost like send them a monthly correspondence telling them how you’re applying things, give them a little personal update. And they might not ever respond to you personally, until, you know, eight months in or something like that. But if you can kind of become like the poster boy or poster girl for them, and you’re just in regular contact, regular, not just just saying like, Hey, this is how I’ve been applying this, here’s my success, like, everybody loves to hear that if you have a if you teach people or work with people in any way, like you want to know that you are having an impact on this person. And so if they’re giving you these updates, like, Hey, I’m doing what you said, and I’m applying it this way. And here’s the results I’m getting, you keep that up for a while before ever making your pitch and start seeing that, you know, months in advance, especially someone big like Amy Porterfield, like that’s probably the better route to making a successful pitch. And, you know, at least for me personally, like, that’s a big enough opportunity that I’m willing to wait six months or a year for that or two years, because you know, there aren’t that many people that could have that big of a positive impact on your business. So you kind of want to get it right.
Yeah, for sure. Alright, so we’ve got our content, then what I feel like now we’re gonna start really stepping into sort of some of the growth avenues. Exposure.
Right, so Okay, so exposure is number four. But before exposure, we’ve got kind of one further piece that I mean, this can kind of come in at any point along the way, but it’s the community aspect. And I think that, you know, this can be certainly a, you know, a private Facebook community or a circle or, you know, any one of the other kinds of private membership communities that people have. But it can also be just general in public, like I’m most active on Twitter. And it’s really interesting to me, I’ve only gotten into Twitter in the past year, or a year and a half or so. And one of the interesting things that has been my experience with Twitter is how a community can kind of be created in a public space. And so it’s kind of less gated off. But that doesn’t make it any less valuable. And in a lot of ways, I think that it can actually be more valuable to you, especially when you have a smaller audience. And that you can kind of just become, you know, not the main leader, but a leader within a larger community. And this is really actually a great thing where I’ve had a decent amount of experience doing community building in the past. But if you’re looking to build a community, with yourself as the leader, it is a super time and energy intensive project, especially at the start when you don’t have a lot of people in there to help kind of carry the load. And so by participating in a public community, that’s more of an open forum, you don’t actually need to carry that load. And the conversation is always happening. And you can just be a really valuable participant in it. And so you can do all the same things you would do as if it was your own community. But you can just do that in public.
So what’s that look like on Twitter?
Yeah, so I mean, I think that’s just starting off and identifying like, who are the people that you are wanting to connect with? And so for me, Twitter now does have a dedicated community feature, but the ones that are most valuable, I find, are just the public conversations that are happening. And so people will talk about marketing Twitter, which is really huge. And there’s many kinds of sub marketing like Twitter’s almost, but it kind of depends on the people who you follow. And so when when I got active on Twitter, I, you know, had originally signed up 10 years ago or something, but I deleted everyone I was following and I only followed the 15 or 20 people who I was like, these are like really my people I think like how they, you know, do their creative work, how they market themselves, I believe in what they’re doing. And basically from there, then you kind of start with this really dense hub of people who you really like. And all of a sudden, you get exposed to all these people who are just like them, and who kind of have a similar worldview to you. And so it is kind of organic. That’s been, you know, my experience of building community on Twitter or participating in community on Twitter is starting with those people who I really look up to and admire. And maybe their people have huge followings, maybe they’re people who are at the same level I am. But then just participating in those conversations. And it kind of is, it’s like growing almost a friend group kind of like, there’s all these kind of equal or active participants, some people aren’t that active, but they’re following along. And so all of a sudden, there’s probably this core group of 50, or 100, people who make up this community who are really actively creating content and engaging in the conversations. And then there’s this much larger group of people who are more kind of just bystanders listening in, but they’re not really actively contributing that much. But you are kind of seeing if you’re really active with this group of people who you look up to, and maybe that’s, you know, 10, or 15, or 20, however, many people, it doesn’t need to be a lot. But if you kind of start with those people and just participate in the same conversations, you kind of get associated with them. And people start following you and finding their way back to your stuff. And for me, that’s my newsletter, just by being associated and participating in this larger conversation about all these things that you’re interested in. So for me, that’s kind of the Creator, economy, marketing, and podcasting.
Well, and I love the idea of this public community, because as a guest to some, I mean, I don’t want to join 50 Facebook groups to kind of see what’s up with different hosts. But if I follow them on Instagram and interact with them, then I can be a part of their community. So to me, your approach to community is so much more approachable, and also a bit more innovative than I think what us in the online business space have kind of grown up with, you know that a community is this closed down Facebook group, and you need to be interacting on Facebook, which sounds horrible. That’s like a day to day practice. Yeah, so I feel like I felt my shoulders kind of release when you describe that. So I hope the listeners did, too.
Yeah, and I think it’s, it’s also dependent on which platforms you’re on, because Facebook and Instagram are much more siloed, kind of where it’s, you’re following specific people. And I mean, Facebook, I mean, there’s the group’s function, obviously. And then there’s also if you’re following that person, as a friend, and so it can be a little bit harder to do that. Whereas I think that LinkedIn and Twitter feel like they have a bit more of an open ecosystem. I mean, Twitter, yeah, 100% open where anybody can see if they follow, you know, such and such person that you happen to comment on their tweet, anyone can see that. And LinkedIn is kind of similar. And I mean, Instagram to some extent, but those two for me just feel a bit more open. And there’s more kind of serendipity that can kind of happen, where you just find all these cool people that you never would have discovered otherwise. And so that’s, that’s what’s really kind of drawn me to Twitter, I know a lot of people have a lot of negative kinds of perceptions of it, and which that does exist. And I think it’s also worse for women as well, I will say, then, than for men on Twitter. But I think that you can also really highly curate your kind of environment as a starting point, like I mentioned, and that can go a long way to actually erasing a lot of those negative kind of side effects.
For sure. I’ve even noticed over the last two years, like as different things have happened, you know, in the states and politically and globally. I’m like, Man, I feel like I’ve done a really great job of curating my Facebook friends list. Because people I like I’m friends with in real life, they’re like, oh, it’s really triggering and all this and I’m like, Oh, I just unfriended and unfollowed, not haphazardly, but very intentionally, and it’s a much better space for me. Yeah. So I think I love the idea too, of curating, like, who you’re following and who you’re letting have influence and whose opinions you’re seeing and potentially valuing. So, yep. All right. Last one is exposure, which, you know, I’m excited about.
Yeah. And so I think, yeah, really, those first three steps are kind of the, I mean, the first one is literally the foundation, but all of that the foundation, the content, the community, these are kind of the things that people want to skip over. And then they just want to go for the exposure. But without those first three in place, you can get exposure to a lot of people, but they’re probably not going to stick around. And I don’t know if you know, or know of Jaya konzo. He works more with it. Yeah, with brands in the podcasting space. And he’s, I know, he’s hosted a bunch of shows for some brands and works as a consultant for them. But he’s someone that I really look up to in the podcast space, and to some extent, the podcast marketing as well, although he’s more in the show development side of things. But he has this great saying that marketing isn’t about who comes, it’s about who stays. And that I think is the key here. And so that’s where those first three pieces are all about keeping people once you get that exposure to them, which is why kind of the exposure piece I have as the last thing because if you get exposure to a million people and none of them stick around, then what was the point? And so the exposure kind of comes at the end here and this is all around creating sustainable strategies to get in front of more people. but once you have this foundation where you know that, okay, if I get exposed to 10 people, at least five of them are actually going to stick around like then you’re in a really good place to actually do something with that exposure. And so you know, one of my favorite strategies is podcast guesting really podcast guesting and collaborations. These are the two things, collaborations with other podcasters. But this could also be with other content creators, I think those are the two quickest ways to start ramping up that exposure, and getting people aware of you and your show or your brand or whatever that is. And so this is something that podcasters can certainly benefit from, but as you and your audience know, like all business owners can benefit from this. And yeah, that can be through guesting on shows or by whether that is podcasts or YouTube channels or doing collabs with you know, Instagram influencers or whatever it is, there’s so many ways that you can potentially collaborate with people that are really win win. I mean, the best ones are win-win. And they really benefit everyone involved. So a lot of times they’re actually fairly easy pitches if you’re approaching the right people with an appropriate pitch.
Totally, if it’s if there’s alignment and what the two of you do, and there’s some level of complementary Enos right, you don’t do the exact same thing. But your audiences are similar. Typically, it’s a really easy ask. I also want to point out because I think there might be people listening who and I’ve heard it before, who don’t host their own show, and they are podcast guests. And they think that the fact that they don’t host a show is going to impede their ability to get yeses, because they say, you know, podcast hosts really want to swap. And that’s true. And also, a lot of us that host interview shows know that our solo episodes do far better than our interview shows do. And I think as a host, I’m never one who’s like, Oh, you want to be on my show? Yeah, let’s do a swap, I have to make sure that what that guest is going to bring to my audience is going to be aligned for what they show up and expect. So if you’re a guest, you can collaborate in other ways. If that person that you’re pitching for you to be a guest on their show, has some level of expertise or experience to where you can expose them to your audience doesn’t need to be a podcast audience, like you said, it can be Instagram, it could be inside of a program, then that’s a win win. What do I tell my kids fair does not mean equal? Yeah, you know, and so having a collaboration doesn’t mean that you’re both giving the same medium, right? Or even the same number of exposure, because a lot of times people paying for a program are very engaged in the content that you might show up to bring. So that was a rant.
Yeah, there are so many, I think that’s such an important point, though, that that fair does not need to be equal. And to some extent, like I would, probably, if, let’s say, I have a show that has 10,000 listeners as an example. And somebody came to me and they said, like, you know, I will, I’ll be willing to do a, an email, send out newsletter specifically about you and your content, or whatever it is, or maybe it’s an email interview with you to my newsletter of, you know, 1500 people, so much smaller audience, I would almost say that’s more valuable to some extent, because like email that I mean, there’s different ways to, I don’t know how you actually quantify that podcasting does have this wonderful ability to get across personality, and it’s long form, you get to spend some time with people. But email is just so much more actionable, if it’s in terms of getting clicks or anything like that. And in some ways, people are more guarded of their inboxes. So kind of like that may be harder to get that exposure to those 1500 people. And so I think, yeah, if you have a social audience, or an email newsletter, or whatever that is, that’s something that you can offer up as, as a trade. But also, don’t forget, podcast hosts are looking for good content. And so if you are approaching them with something, that is just information they can’t get anywhere else that they don’t have, that their audience is going to benefit from, that can be enough, you don’t need to offer them all this exposure to an audience that you may not have. Because you know, this is one of the best ways to build your audience when you’re small when you don’t have 1000s of people. And so I think just remembering that you and your unique perspective and your content can be enough. But leaning into that unique perspective, and unique content is going to help you stand out from content that they can get anywhere else. And so really thinking about that this kind of goes back to that foundation level, like what are the things that differentiate you from other people who talk about the same thing that you do? And that is going to be something that especially like higher level hosts, they want unique stuff, they don’t want something that somebody can just google and find easily, like 10 steps to, you know, do whatever, they want somebody who has a very unique approach to it.
Yeah, it’s interesting, because a lot of times if we pitch a client, we’ve had a couple of instances where the host will send us back an email that’s like, we’re only taking on guests that will offer swaps. And part of me wants to say, like, that’s such a lame blanket policy because it doesn’t put the content first in my mind like Does that just mean you would say yes to anyone that’s willing to do a swap? And so that’s just it’s so refreshing to hear you say that because at the end of it for podcasting content is the most important thing and making sure that you’re putting out content that is aligned for your listeners. So the swap says a blanket statement drives me nuts.
Yeah, I, whenever I hear that, I think oh, that show probably isn’t even actually worth being on then. Because it feels like it’s this transactional tit for tat, like, surely the content is being watered down. But it also seems to say something about them as, are they just willing to go on any show that may, the audience of the other show may have nothing to do with who they want to get in front of? And so it just seems to me like they hint at a lack of strategy, from a high level of like, both in selecting the guests that come on for them, but also the audience’s that they’re spending their time getting in front of? Well, yeah,
like managing their time. That’s, I mean, we go through strategy first, just like you do for hosts. It’s like, none of us have unlimited hours in our day to guest on every podcast out there. You know, so there is like some level of research that we do to make sure it’s a relevant audience. And there’s some size to it. I mean, it doesn’t need to be gigantic. But I want to make sure there’s a couple of listeners, you know.
Yep. I mean, and that’s, that’s a great thing, I think, to point out too, and I’m sure you talk about this a lot that we get so caught up with numbers and scale or getting in front of the most number of people possible. But I know that I’ve had students success stories and client success stories as well, both from guessing and collaborating, but also just growing their own shows, where sometimes it’s like getting in front of the right 100 People or having the right 100 people in your audience is really all you need. And like I have one client who she was running her show for about a year when she launched her first big program, and she had maybe like 200 250 listeners, and she had a like multi six figure launch. And she’s like, kept that going. And her audience hasn’t grown that much. It’s just a really high ticket offering. And she has those few 100 People who are just the absolute perfect fits. And it’s like, oh, yeah, that was the example for me where I was like, I believe in this. And then I saw that, and I was like, oh, yeah, you really, really do not need even 1000s of listeners in order to run a successful business based on a podcast and kind of small community.
Now we do a lot of pitching to very niche shows, because those are the ones that are far more engaged. Because those listeners like if it’s a particular business, like if it’s marketing for brick and mortar business owners or spot owners, well, everyone that shows up like they’re showing up week after week, because it’s one of a handful of shows that’s talking just to them about what they need. Jeremy, this has been awesome. I so appreciate you kind of walking us through the framework that you take your academy students through. Now I know you have a workshop, and I’m actually an affiliate for you in this upcoming launch. Because I’ve been behind the scenes of two of your programs. I think they were maybe like opt-ins, and I was blown away at it was the blueprint, I think for podcast growth. And then I think at one point you offered a sponsorship program. And I’m like, if this is his unpaid offering, I can’t imagine what the paid offering is. So the first kickoff for your sort of launch for podcast Marketing Academy is a workshop Correct?
Yep. And so yeah, those two programs that you were on the roadmap to five figure sponsors, and that was about a year ago, from the time that we’re recording this. And then the blueprint for podcast growth, those were similar offerings to what this upcoming workshop is going to be or at least in terms of style. So I’ve been really enjoying doing this kind of free multi day event leading up to the launch. And my goal is always with these workshops to like actually get people wins without having to, you know, upsell into the larger program. And so this one is really going to be covered by sponsorships in the first one a year ago. And then there was kind of a mini kind of version of The Marketing Academy last time, which kind of outlined some of the the four pillars that we talked about here today. And then this year’s workshop or this launch workshop is going to be a three day event. And this one’s going to be about the three things that I think kind of keep people stuck. And so when people are they’re creating a podcast and they’re not getting the results, it often comes down to three things and so the one of those is exposure that we kind of talked about today is they don’t actually have a system in place to get exposure and so they’re just waiting for people to come to them. So that never really works. And then the second one is systems and this is something that like I’m a huge systems nerd and I have kind of recently realized that having systems in place is a marketing problem because when you think about you know getting your your product, your show, whatever it is out in front of people, you need to do that promotional marketing work and you need to have the time to do that and systems are the way to make that time and so often people’s their time is taken up entirely by creating their, their product or you know, working in the business and they have no time to actually get the word out about it. And so systems, or something, and automations, and all that kind of stuff, we’re gonna be looking at how to actually save a whole ton of time on production so that you can actually free up the time to do the marketing. And then the final piece of this workshop the final day, or actually, I’m kind of reciting them in reverse here. So day one, we’re actually gonna be talking about fit. And so talking about podcast market fit, but also podcast creator fit. And so there are so many great ideas out there that you might not actually be the right person to create that show about. And so maybe you’re working on a show, that is a good idea that you’re not the right person to do. And I have actually done this in the past because it was a great strategic podcast, and I had very little personal interest in it. And
Well, I want to know why.
So for a while there, our production agency specialized in working with health and wellness businesses, and this was largely through referrals we had built up. Almost all of our clients were in the wellness space. Finally, after resisting niching down, I was like, Okay, I should probably just lean into this, it’s been three years that this has been our almost entire client base. And this hasn’t even been with me trying, like probably, if I actually committed to this, we could just be the de facto podcast production and marketing agency for wellness businesses. And so I started creating content around that and created a podcast called Build a Better wellness biz. And I was this was, yeah, and it was like a great show. And I got great feedback on it. And I enjoyed parts of it. And then there was a large enough part of it that I was just like, the only reason I’m doing this is because it’s a strategic thing. Like, this is not the show I would create for myself. And I started juxtaposing this against my newsletter, which I would write forever if I had no subscribers to it at all. And it happens that there are a bunch of people who do enjoy the newsletter. But the it was just so clear, looking at these two different creative projects and saying like, Okay, this show just it, it will never be as successful as it could be from someone who was actually the person who just loved digging into this world of marketing for wellness businesses, and like, had a strong driving passion for health and wellness themselves. And it’s not like I, you know, want to be unhealthy or anything like that. But I don’t want to spend all my time researching wellness content, or like living in that world. That’s just not the stuff that flows naturally for me. And so it kind of came to the point where I was like, Okay, this is it feels like there’s too much friction and resistance. This is not I can’t sustain this. And so I ended up shutting the show down. And that was a huge kind of lightbulb moment for me where it was like, oh, yeah, like, that was a great idea. And I think it would have worked, but not not with me doing it, not with me hosting it. And so that’s what kind of dispersed they have. This workshop is going to be all about looking at that boat that fit between the creator and the show. But then also the idea of the show and the market, like so many people get into this, this kind of like, mindset of like, well, you know, why isn’t anybody listening to my show? I love this idea. And it’s like the thing I’m passionate about, and we hear so much about the importance of passion. But sometimes you might be really passionate about a topic that there’s like 10 other people in the world who care about, and maybe you can get those 10 people, but you’re just not going to grow your audience beyond that. And it’s literally impossible. And I think that there are certainly shows out there that it is literally impossible to grow them to an amount where it’s going to be sustainable as a business. And so, yeah, that’s what we’re gonna look at. And then that first day,
I love, I mean, we could go on and on, we might have to revisit this because I think the idea of the fit is so important. Also, like you mentioned your member who recognized that podcast guesting was just not her thing. And I think so often in this business space, we try to fit ourselves into what we’re told we should do or what we think we should do. And when you really find the perfect fit, it flows pretty nicely. So I’m excited, I can’t wait to be a part of the workshop. Gonna sign up with my affiliate link.
I am excited to have you there. And that to your point as well, like, that has been my experience, too. I think over the past two years of the previous, I don’t know, four or five years trying to do everything like by the book, how you’re supposed to do it. And then realizing over the past two years, like slowly, one by one starting to, like, throw away the rulebook and tear the pages out and be like, but I want to do it this way. And realizing that a lot of times, that was actually the way that works better, because I think one of the things that I’ve realized with marketing and with creating and business and like, all of that stuff is in order for it to work, it has to be sustainable. And in order for it to be sustainable, you have to enjoy the process of doing it because you’re gonna be doing it for years or decades. Like when you think about your career, this is not something that you’re just going to solve in one year or five years even. And so I think for me, it was starting to look more and take more seriously like, okay, the thing that’s going to be successful is the thing I enjoy, so I need to first of all, be aware notice, you know, what are the things I enjoy and don’t enjoy, and then lean into the ones I enjoy more and chances are that’s actually the thing that’s going to work in the end.
Yeah, I love that. Alright, so if you want to join Jeremy’s workshop, I have a link for it at the pod wise group.com/traction Because that is going to be a key piece. of the workshop. So the pod wise group pod wise with a z.com/traction. And then you have created a page with other resources and information about you and the services and programs, right, Jeremy?
Yeah. So if anybody would like to connect with me, and I’ve got a bunch of resources, some of which we already mentioned, like the roadmap to five finger sponsors workshop, which is free still, and probably will be for a while yet, that is at counterweight creative.co/pitch yourself all one word there, counterweight creative.co/pitch. yourself. And so you can find out how to connect with me on Twitter and everywhere else. I’m active and have a bunch of other resources. I have a couple of newsletters, one related to podcasting, one related to creative work in general, and related to health and wellness. And none of them are related to health and wellness. No.
All right, well, thank you for coming on the screen. I really appreciate it.
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.
Okay, what did you think? I really liked the way the conversation evolved into Jeremy sharing one of the pillars of his framework, sharing how hosts can leverage that and then my sort of counterpoint to how the guest can leverage that both as a guest and sometimes in our own business. So I would love to hear from you though, did the conversation give you any new perspective on how hosts should approach their marketing and how you can support them in doing that? If so, shoot me an Instagram message. Let me know how you’re thinking of tweaking your guesting strategy, so that you can really partner with the host to help them reach new audiences. I would love to hear that. And if you are a podcast host and you feel like your podcast growth is a little bit stuck. I would love for you to join me during Jeremy’s upcoming workshop on April 12 through the 14th. You heard that right. I am signing up for the workshop. And I’m also an affiliate for the workshop and his program. I believe in his work and have gained so much from just the couple of training sessions that I’ve taken from him that I cannot wait to attend this new workshop and see what takeaways I’m able to gain from it. So you can go to the pod wise group.com/traction to sign up for his April workshop and get all the information there. And I really hope to see you on the calls. Okay. Until next time, be well and be visible.